Same old problem, whole new way

[desperance]

Can I use the word 'parochial' - metaphorically, in the sense that means narrow of vision, restricted - in a culture that has no parishes?

Comments

[wishwords.livejournal.com]

Yes. As someone from Protestant Midwest America, where there are no parishes, I know what parochial means and so did my neighbors.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Mmm. It's not so much understanding the meaning that bothers me, it's whether the word is legitimate in a context that seems to rule it out. My favourite example: can't use 'sodomy' in a second-world fantasy, because there is no Sodom. Which is an absolute rule for me, so how can I use 'parochial' where there are no parishes? They should simply not have the word...

[wishwords.livejournal.com]

Oh! I see what you mean.

How about using "small town" or "backwoods" or similar?

[durham-rambler.livejournal.com]

I don't know, though I do tend to trip over words that are obviously not of the time or place. Is this one obvious? Are you looking for an alternative, like small-town?

I was musing that maybe trying to translate parochial into a language where the culture has no parishes could be instructive and might lead to a solution.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

I was musing that maybe trying to translate parochial into a language where the culture has no parishes could be instructive and might lead to a solution.

Into and out of, to learn their equivalent of the metaphorical meaning? Is true. Tragically, of course, I speak no non-parochial languages well enough to do that.

I don't know if this one's obvious enough to make other people trip; it made me trip. I went "ooh, parochial! - oh. No..." and then began to wonder if I could get away with it after all, because after all not everyone is as paranoid about this stuff as I am...

[athenais.livejournal.com]

It would seem like an anachronism to me in a fantasy setting. It's too strongly associated with Catholic schools in my mind.

If it were alternate Earth then I could swing with it.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Damn. You are a reader after my own mind.

*expunges word*

[esmeraldus-neo.livejournal.com]

Duuuuuude, "provincial" is the one you're looking for. Or maybe even "insular."

[szandara.livejournal.com]

Provincial is the word that came to my mind. Similar meaning, but without the Catholic connotations.

[esmeraldus-neo.livejournal.com]

[nodnodnod]

Acceptably close denotation, and very good connotations.

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

Specifically Catholic? Because to me the parish is the unit where established church meets local government.

The word parochial doesn't bother me unduly: it's cultural, but how many of our words aren't?

[athenais.livejournal.com]

Specifically Catholic, specifically schools. I can't help it! I would know what he meant, but I'd fall out of the story for a minute.

[mantichore.livejournal.com]

Obviously too late, but, though I remain not wholly convinced by the ukase on sodomy (I understand the thinking, but it's linked to a name old enough for the problem to be trivial — and what do you use instead? Because you'll get the same problem with buggery, of course), I too think parochial should go.

[drasecretcampus.livejournal.com]

Someone should write A Town Called Bugger. Oh, I never realised that - it derives from "Bulgarian". You learn something every day. Of course, "Sodomy" is a woolly term covering - as it were - a multitude of sins.

A comparable* term could be found in such and such an imaginary location being appropriated. Acts of gross Bedanny.



* I typed analogous but it looks wrong.

[mantichore.livejournal.com]

"Mordor this for a lark, I'm going back home", said Sam, leaving Frodo nonplussed. ^______^

[durham-rambler.livejournal.com]

Miles Kington once wrote in a Frangalis article: “Soddez cela pour une allouette”.

[mantichore.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's more glais than fran, really. You totally need to speak English to get that one. ^______^

[arkessian.livejournal.com]

If sodomy is out, so is parochial.

Sorry.

Blinkered?

[desperance.livejournal.com]

'Blinkered' only if horses - and hence blinkering - are common. Granted that this is a fantasy, but it's a very Chinesey fantasy, and I don't know about traditional Chinese harness. Will go and look; thank you...

[jeremy-m.livejournal.com]

I think this is a severe red fish, in that you're choosing an arbitrary set of words to disallow based on what you (or more generally modern people) happen to know of the words' origins. But assuming your fantasy Chinesey people aren't speaking English, there's no reason to associate their word that translates as parochial with a word they would or wouldn't have.

Consider cows. I presume you're happy to use "cow" because it has deep Old English roots not tied to any known event or system specific to Earth, but really that's just because it dates back to the proto Indo European root "cu" and we don't know the origin of that.

Maybe "Cu" was the name of the first person to domesticate cattle, or maybe it's the name of the place where it happened, or a reference to some social system that made domestication easier. We only don't have associations like that because we don't know enough about our own language.

Each person's set of etymological root knowledge is different, and tends to change as they learn and forget things, so unless you're going to write only in a language that you made up especially (as computer programmers do), there's no point worrying about it.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

I do take your point, but there is nevertheless a vocabulary to which my own subset of readers - give or take, more or less - can reasonably be expected to apply particular cultural meanings. As witness, comments above about dropping out of the story, which is what I am utterly primed to avoid.

Mostly, I'm comfortable with my own judgement - for me, pace mantichore, 'sodomy' is completely out - but I think the borderline words are interesting, because they measure where my borders lie as against other people's. I did wonder whether my anxiety over 'parochial' was neurotic, but on the responses above, I guess not.

There will, I am sure, be words that I use casually because I don't know their etymology, which will cause wiser heads than mine to frown. There will also be words that I draw the line at, that I use regardless. I wouldn't use 'bugger', because I do know about the Bulgarians - but I do use 'slave', despite knowing all about the Slavs. Everybody makes their own compromise in the end; it's just that I can't help jittering about it.

[martyn44.livejournal.com]

Consulting Roget doesn't do much good - insular and provincial have connotations of size way beyond 'parochial' - a parish is a few acres whereas a province can by millions of acres if it is in Canada, and Greenland is an island. Hidebound and unsophisticated are inappropriate. Hmmm. Something referencing the character's rural background? Something small and agricultural?

I'm minded of an encounter shortly after Capt Cook landed in Australia. A kanagroo went bounding by and the good captain asked an aborigine, 'What is that?' 'Kangaroo' was the reply, which I am reliably informed translates from the Aboriginal of the era as 'Buggered if I know, mate.'

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

does it violate the letter or the spirit of the law? I guess that would be my, um, rule of thumb.

In the case of parochial, on the one hand, I would tend to say no, because of its tie to parishes. On the other hand, it's all a translation anyway, so if the spirit of the thing reflects what is present in the society, then after a certain point you can't fixate too hard or your head will explode.

Sorry to be of no help.

I did not know bugger comes from Bulgarian. Although it's not a word much in use in American English.