Here's one for you grammarians

[desperance]

In the phrase "all manner of", is the word 'manner' singular as it appears, or is it some kind of hidden plural? Does one say "There was all manner of ways", or "There were all manner of ways"?

Comments

[glinda-w.livejournal.com]

I'd go with "were" - it's what I'm used to hearing, anyway, but can't point to any specific reason why (blasted brainfog, etc.). Also, what feels comfortable for me is US usage; I know the UK has some different rules (frex, a company/corporation is singular in the US, plural there).

[danjite.livejournal.com]

I go for the implied plural.

I also go for fresh figs, but that isn't relevant right here.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Oh, fresh figs are always relevant, surely?

[danjite.livejournal.com]

Damnably so.

I adore fresh figs and would trade all the durian, jackfruit, jujube and longan in the world for good figs.

Thailand has over 300 varities of fig tree and not a single damn one of them bears an edible fruit!

Grump!

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Thailand has over 300 varities of fig tree and not a single damn one of them bears an edible fruit!

Now, see, when I first read yr previous comment, I thought "oh, and guess who lives where he can wander out and pick one, snarl, mutter...!"

And then I thought, "Hang on, that would be me! At least, I have seen figs on neighbours' trees..."

But then I confess that I did assume it would be you too. I am duly astonished. 300, you say. Lawks. I have two ficus benjamina as house plants, and I never expected them to fruit, but I'd have thought you'd have something...

How's NZ, in the fig-growing way?

[danjite.livejournal.com]

I can confirm the Brown Turkey and French Sugar varieties are grown there, but cannot confirm if they are in sufficient quantity to be commercialy available.

I shall drown my sorrows in lamb chops!

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

The plural sounds much, much better. I don't know the grammatical reason why, but it does.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

I agree that it sounds better; I just worry that it may not be right ("none of them are coming" sounds better; "none of them is coming" is right. I think).

Also, icon love!!

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

As a general rule, I find that the best way to work with English grammar is to take "what sounds better", and then make an argument for why that is correct.

Our grammatical rules are derived through examination of examples, after all. If you try to impose non-organically developed grammatical rules onto English, you get stupid shit like to never split infinitives, and that prepositions are things you can't end sentences with.

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

I'd go for plural; surely the statement "There were ways" is modified by the adjectival phrase "all manner of".

Why yes, I'm bluffing: can you tell?

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Why yes, but you know how easily I am bluffed. Frequently, indeed, I consent to being bluffed, even when I can see it coming; so much easier than challenging it, and finding oneself again stranded on the rocks of one's own ignorance...

[cristalia.livejournal.com]

Hee, no, that's actually true.

[dedbutdrmng.livejournal.com]

My OED would have 'was'. The example if gives is 'is used for all manner of ailments'. So that would equate to 'was'.

I think.

Actually. Now I've typed it that doesn't work. I prefer were.

I'm not good at this. This was a pointless reply.

Have some cat Pron instead.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the pr0n. I don't think your example helps, either way: the 'is' clearly refers to the unspecified subject of the sentence, where the ailments are the object. In my difficulty, it's all subject. Or subjective, perhaps.

*goes back to looking at cat pr0n*

[dedbutdrmng.livejournal.com]

Lookatthecatyouonlyseethecat

Yes. That struck me after typing it. So I fell back on cat pr0n in the hope it would distract everyone from my confusion.

Lookatthecatyouonlyseethecatlookatthecat

However, it does mean I have learnt that 'Manse' refers specifically to the house of a Minister. Which I'm sure will come in useful somewhere.

Lookatthecatyouonlyseethecat1-2-3andyourawake.

[cristalia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, "were" is right. Basically "all manner of" is an adjective phrase that's attaching onto the noun, which is still plural, but adjective phrases are always recursive and optional. You can add more without affecting number, which is generated in the noun, and you can take them away without affecting number.

So if you'd say "there were ways" it's "there were all manner of ways".

*feels the warm glow of Using Her Education* ;)

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Thank you! That makes pure sense to me.

*feels the warm glow of Using Someone Else's Education*

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

See, I know more about Latin grammar than I do about English, so I'm liable to be Led Astray by my Education (which is also fun!).

You do come up with the damnedest things, my dear.

[esmeraldus-neo.livejournal.com]

Match it to the noun you use.

A random dictionary gives "we saw all manner of people at the mall" as an example. "People" is a plural noun. Converted, it would be "There were all manner of people at the mall."

Contrast with "there was all manner of mayhem to be found in Los Angeles."

Re: You do come up with the damnedest things, my dear.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Thank you too! (How often does it happen, that everybody on the 'net says the same thing?)

[handworn.livejournal.com]

There were all manner of ways. It's one of those words of which the singular and plural are the same, like the deer and the antelope.

[mantichore.livejournal.com]

Hi, this is a hijacking.

Seeing this discussion reminded me of something I keep seeing which is driving me mad: different than. I seem to recall having been taught it should be different from, and it's what I blissfully used. But that dratted different than popped up recently and started multiplying. I see it everywhere, these days. Was I led astray for years and has reality finally caught up with me? Or is it one of those mistakes that are so wrong they seduce people into thinking this is the long-lost proper way to speak?

Inquiring French minds need to be told.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

It's a cross-Atlantic thing: in the UK we tend to say different from or sometimes different to; different than is American. And wrong. (Not just 'because it's American'; grammatically it makes no sense, historically it's insupportable...) And, inevitably, it's starting to filter over here thru' the TV and such. We should probably give up now, but me, I'm still fightin'...

[mantichore.livejournal.com]

Thanks, makes me feel better. But what really puzzled me was that it seemed to be quite recent. I can't remember seeing this until some months, maybe a couple of years, ago. It felt like those old SF short stories where the world changes due to some tinkering with the past, and only the hero remembers how it truly was, before the present was altered.

[martyn44.livejournal.com]

I'd say it is plural, but it can be singular - context dependent - and to me they both look wrong, inexplicably.

'Different than', carry on fighting the good fight. They can write/speak American if they wish but I shall struggle with the English language until all I can think is 'gaa gaa', which will not be long now, in all liklihood.

[valydiarosada.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with the others: the plural feels right.

[valydiarosada.livejournal.com]

So does "there was all manner of mayhem" as explained by esmeraldus_neo. I've drunk too much wine. I think I'll just curl up into a ball or something.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Don't be silly - there isn't too much wine. Not anywhere.

Curling up is good, though. Can we have been hedgehogs, in another life?