A question of usage

[desperance]

I have always assumed that the original phrase is "to wreak vengeance", and that "to reap vengeance" is a mishearing: that vengeance is something you perpetrate, not something that you gather in.

But am I right? Google, I find, has more hits for "reap" than "wreak" in this context: which is a count of common and not proper usage, of course, but is just enough to raise the question in my mind...

Comments

[davidbarnett.livejournal.com]

I'd have said "wreak", in that vengeance, surely, is something you perpetrate rather than reap, or harvest?

[davidbarnett.livejournal.com]

In fact, it never crossed my mind that it was anything other than "wreak".

Which, when you type it often enough, is a funny old word, innit?

[davidbarnett.livejournal.com]

And again... I seem to have just written exactly what you wrote in your original post.

[triciasullivan.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I know 'wreack havoc' but not so much 'wreak vengeance' although vengeance does seem eminently wreakable. But I could see it being used as 'reap', too--the idea that vengeance is sown and reaped doesn't seem so farfetched.

TBH I've never heard either phrase particularly, which means I really have no business commenting...

*leaves, ungracefully*

[desperance.livejournal.com]

I think that's the cause of my hesitation, that there is a case to be made for both and I suddenly doubt myself, my own ear, everything.

I should find another phrase. I will find another phrase, almost certainly, at second draft; why say what others have said before, whichever way round it goes? But right now this is in my head and I have no other way to go.

Also, your contributions to this journal are always welcome and never without grace. So nyaarh.

[triciasullivan.livejournal.com]

I hope you figure it out. The more I think about it the more confused I get.

Where are the Wise Ones when needed?

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

wreak' is the correct usage.

Etymology:
Middle English wreken, from Old English wrecan to drive, punish, avenge; akin to Old High German rehhan to avenge and perhaps to Latin urgēre to drive on, urge

However, if you were to 'reap the vengeance you had sowed', then the narrative logic would make it sound both right and original. You then need a period for the execution, whereas wreaking vengeance wouldn't require any interlude.

[lamentables.livejournal.com]

OED

wreak, v

6. a. To take vengeance or inflict retributive punishment for, to avenge or revenge (some wrong, harm, or injury).
Beowulf 1670 Ic..fyren-dæda wræc, dea{edh}-cwealm deni{asg}ea. c825 Vesp. Psalter lxxviii. 10 Wrec blod {edh}iowa {edh}inra {edh}æt agoten is. c1205 LAY. 19365 He {th}ohten hider wenden & wræken his fader wunden. a1300 Cursor M. 17332 Mi~self es sett to wrek {th}e wrang. c1300 Havelok 327 {Th}at non ne mihte comen hire to..with hir to speken, {Th}at euere mihte hire bale wreken. 1382 WYCLIF Deut. xxxii. 43 For the blood of his seruauntis he shal wreek. c1400 Destr. Troy 1750 Now [is] tyme..To mene vs with manhode & our mys wreke. 1471 RIPLEY Comp. Alch. Ep. ii. in Ashm. (1652) 109 Of your great fortune ye be not presumptuous, Nor vengeable of my rode to wreke every wrong. a1525 Vergilius in Thoms E.E. Prose Rom. (1858) II. 23 When wyll you wreke your faders dethe? 1581 A. HALL Iliad IX. 169 Yet list he not their wretched woe to wreake. 1587 TURBERV. Trag. T. (1837) 141 The dome divine..Yet strikes at last, and surely wreakes the wrong. 1596 SPENSER F.Q. IV. xi. 5 For of a womans hand it was ywroke, That of the wound he yet in languor lyes. c1622 FLETCHER Prophetess II. ii, Lend me your helping hands To wreak the Parricide. 1700 DRYDEN Ovid's Met. XII. 338 Arms, Arms, the double-form'd with Fury call; To wreak their Brother's Death. 1813 SCOTT Trierm. II. xxvii, Vanoc's death must now be wroken. 1814- Ld. of Isles IV. xxx, O Scotland! shall it e'er be mine To wreak thy wrongs in battle-line. 1887 SWINBURNE Locrine IV. ii. 56 My will It is that holds me yet alive..Till all my wrong be wroken.

[lamentables.livejournal.com]

8. a. To inflict or take (vengeance, etc.) on or upon a person; to execute or carry out by way of punishment or revenge.
In frequent use from c 1830.
c1489 CAXTON Sonnes of Aymon i. 30 That ye make punyssyon thereof and wrek on hym grete vengaunce. 1700 DRYDEN Sigism. & Guisc. 589 He left the Dame, Resolv'd..To wreak his Vengeance, and to cure her Love. 1758 P. WILLIAMSON Life & Adventures (1812) 39 So desirous was every man to have a share in wreaking his revenge on them [sc. dead Indians]. 1772 PRIESTLEY Inst. Relig. (1782) I. 412 Xerxes..wreaked his vengeance upon Babylon. 1809 W. IRVING Knickerb. IV. vii, An historian springs up, who wreaks ample chastisement on it [sc. a nation] in return. 1855 PALEY Æschylus Pref. (1861) p. xxv, Till vengeance had been wreaked for the wrongs suffered in life. 1872 TENNYSON Gareth & Lynette 1236 Thou hast wreak'd his justice on his foes. 1899 SWINBURNE Rosamund II. 32/2, I would the deed Were done, the wreak of wrath were wroken, and I Dead.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Ah. Perhaps not so tautological. Lord love us, what a language...

[lamentables.livejournal.com]

the wreak of wrath were wroken - how splendid is that?!

[desperance.livejournal.com]

It is, it's lovely. I want to keep it by me in self-defence, for the next time someone objects to the amount of alliteration I scatter in my own work. "Swinburne!" I shall cry defiantly. (I have always loved Swinburne. To excess, naturally.)

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Ooh, cool. This is to say that "wreak vengeance" would be a tautology, then: that vengeance is inherent in the wreaking. Whereas reaping would be a literary figure...

[martyn44.livejournal.com]

'Wreak' vengeance. Yes, I know that one.

'Reap' vengeance. I can see it, hear it, but it feels wrong. 'Reap the whirlwind (of vengeance, of retribution)'.

What the hell, your command of English is better than most of us, use what feels right to you.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm there with wreaking vengeance and reaping the whirlwind (which phrase I am entirely too fond of, for some reason).

[martyn44.livejournal.com]

I've just remembered the 'seeing' of it, Emelio Estevez shrilling 'Reap the whirlwind, Sherrif Brady, reap it!' as Billy the Kid in 'Young Guns'. Cheap and nasty, I know, and straight out of Hosea (how much more biblically obscure can you get than Hosea?)

[anef.livejournal.com]

Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

Of course when one has reaped it one has to winnow it, mill it and cook it and then let it grow cold. Quite a long drawn out process.

[triciasullivan.livejournal.com]

Cancel that 'Where are the Wise Ones' comment. Clearly they have arrived.

I'm off to wreak vengeance on the laundry, for being dirty.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

When I Google the "reap" version, it seems that in many of the uses, in context "reap" makes no sense and "wreak" would make sense. OTOH, in all the listings I looked at for "wreak vengeance," the usage makes sense.

When I get down to my office, I'll check some references. But at the moment, I would say that "wreak" is right and most of the people who say "reap" apparently don't know what "reap" means, but they've heard it before and they haven't heard "wreak."

[desperance.livejournal.com]

I think you're almost certainly right, both in grammar and analysis.

Of course, I now regard this as a challenge: to use "reap" in a context where it will indeed make sense...

[anef.livejournal.com]

I'd always understood that wreak was just an older form of work. The past tense being wrought. But maybe not - some of the usages above seem to contradict that. Where's La Marquise when we need her?

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

Away today. Which is why we're looking after Le Marquis for dinner.

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Ah, indeed? Give him my best...

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

Indeed we did.

And now I know who anef is, too, since she was one of the others we invited along to the meal. Oh how small this world is on LJ.

[birdhousefrog.livejournal.com]

I have just been fascinated by this thread.

FWIW, I've always used, thought, etc., "wreak vengeance." which might indeed be "work."

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Thought it was wreak, a verb that seems to have been retired in our semblance of middle class civilization. Now it only gets evoked in cliche--with havoc or vengeance following.

Weird, how I think of its tenses and shift into older verb modes. I can't imagine using 'you have wrought' it has to be 'thou hast wrought.' Probably too much old book reading.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Wreaking vengance is when you do it, reaping vengance is when someone does it to you.

[pennski.livejournal.com]

Ok no-one seems to have said it yet, so I shall.
For me, it's "wreak vengeance" and "reap revenge".

There we go!

[desperance.livejournal.com]

Uh-huh. And your justification for this apparently perverse habit is...?

[pennski.livejournal.com]

Because it sounds right.

If I stop and examine it, it won't. And they will both become "wreak", so I shall stop now.

[wolfinthewood.livejournal.com]

"Then, turning to those who formed the outer line, I cried, "Down with Issus! Follow me to the throne; we will reap vengeance where vengeance is deserved." -- Edgar Rice Burroughs, The Gods of Mars (thanks to Project Gutenberg)

This is the only text on Project Gutenberg to contain the exact phrase. A search under "wreak vengeance" brings up over 600 titles.

[owlfish]

Oh, that's a useful thought.

1830 - Robert Montgomery
Excerpt from a poem entitled "Satan"

But who, when Rapine could not pillage more,
While cannon-thunder chased the daunted winds,
Paused on a desert heath, in speechless ire,
And mark'd the remnant of a ruin'd host Flying,
and pale as phantoms of Despair ? Napoleon!
in the tempest of thy soul, The Elements
were reaping vengeance then!
When Slaughter turn'd the tide of Victory,
And roll'd it back upon thy powerless host
Of famish'd warriors, freezing as they died!
That hour of agony,—the burning sense
Of danger and defeat,—the broken spell
That blasted all thy triumphs into shame,
Sublimed thy spirit with so proud a pang,
It long'd to swell into a million souls,
And shake the universe to save a throne!

[owlfish]

John Wesley uses the concept in his Bible commentary on the book of Joel 3, note 13. http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/notes/joel.htm (So, 18th century sometime.)

"Put ye - Ye executioners of divine vengeance: begin to reap, cut down sinners ripe for judgment"

[owlfish]

Further! I can get us back to Lydgate (15th century).

"He who takes revenge will reap vengeance."

Alas, only in a copyrighted Google Books extract. I really should own a copy of "The Fall of Princes". I bet my friend the Lydgate scholar will know exactly where to look.

Edited to add: Checked with Lydgate scholar and the phrase isn't literally there in the original after all:

"Who doth vengaunce, vengaunce shal atteyne,
In ech estaat withoute excepcioun,
And who of pite vengaunce doth restreyne,
He shal of merci resceyue the guerdoun:
For riht requereth, of trouth and resoun,
Cruel princis shal haue for ther wage
Deth, lik this duk [Hanno of Carthage], dismembrid in Cartage.

Still, I've gotten it back as far as the 18th century at least.

[wolfinthewood.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. I thought 'He who takes revenge will reap vengeance' sounded proverbial, and was looking for it, and not finding it.

I strongly suspect that the phrase 'reap vengeance' really is due to a substitution error, 'reap' for 'wreak', but one that, as you've shown, goes back at least to 1830. I note that in the Wesley example what is being reaped are the 'sinners ripe for judgement', not the vengeance. But it does exemplify the kind of imagery that contributed to the confusion.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

I'd think it would be "wreak".